Battle of Megiddo 1479BC – battle report with 1d6 DBSA

Introduction

After playing some replays of this battle with Dominion of the Spear, I realised how interesting I find this battle.  I decided to play it with the latest iteration of my Ancient Battlelines Clash rules. And then I played it using a small variation on DSBA, the forerunner to DBA.   Being a bit of a 1d6 resolution fanatic, I converted DBSA to 1d6 and gave Megiddo a go.

Rules

To convert DBSA to 1d6 it is roll 1d6 for combat +/- combat factors:  <1 Attacker destroyed, 1-3 Attacker recoils, 4-6 Defender recoils, 7+ Defender Destroyed.  A unit is destroyed on a recoil if up against a “quick kill” (i.e. a less than half result is a destroyed).  I also went with variable activation: roll a 3+ to activate a unit/group, rather than PIP rolls, and then do move, shoot, combat ith each unit/group. Lastly all units armed with missiles may fire 1 basewidth, Light archers still fire 2 basewidth.  If both units have missiles, this is revolved with the single d6 roll.  I may streamline the quick kills and also add in some reactions but I may not need much of the latter as the recoil mechanism takes care of it.  It is also slanted towards DBA and may incorporate movement rates from ABC (ABC is Bill Bank’s Ancients combat with an Armati II riff).  And these rules lend themselves  to gridding and so may look to do that too.

Battle of Megiddo 1479BC  

The Egyptian Pharaoh Thutmose III defeats a Canaanite coalition before the walls of the city of Megiddo.

Sources

See this previous Megiddo battle report for sources I used.

Troops

Egyptians

3 CH Chariots (one with the general Thutmose III)

1 HI Heavy infantry (Blades)

2 MI Medium Infantry

2 LA Light Archers

1 CP Camp

Breakpoint: 3

Coalition of Syrians under the prince of Kadesh

2 CH Chariots (one with leader)

2 MI Medium Infantry

2 LI Light Infantry

1 LA Light Archer

1 CP Camp

Breakpoint: 3

Scenario & Deployment

Special rules: A draw is a rebel victory.

I have gone with a deployment loosely based on the Peter Sides scenario.

Deployment (Egyptians on the left)

Game

Note: Frustratingly I thought I had taken about 3 more photos of the action during the game but did not; the report is not illustrated by as many images as I expected.  Ah well.

Egyptian right flank advances to the river bank.  The Chariots advance into missile range of the Canaanite Chariots.  Two Egyptian Chariots are forced to retreat, while the Canaanite Chariot (+general) retreats.

The Centre chariot missile exchange

The Egyptian left flank moves into light archer range (so the Canaanite LI with javelins cannot return fire.  The Canaanite archers rout (a 6 was rolled) and the Light Infantry recoil.

First blood – Canaanite archers rout on the Egyptian left flank

Still on the Egyptian left flank, the LI  advances and forces the Egyptian archers to retire.  The Li was tempted to move and form a group with the Medium infantry but decided to give missile fire a chance.   It paid off.

After not missing any activation rolls, the Egyptians failed to activate most unit for two turns.  Back in action though and the centre Canaanite chariots retreat and the Canaanite light infantry is routed by missile fire on the left flank.

Canaanite chariots forced back, and an Canaanite light infantry lost

The Egyptian right flank contacts the Canaanites on the hill.  The Blades manage to force the light infantry back, but the clash of the medium infantry sees the Egyptian recoil.

Egyptian right flank clash on the hill

In the centre, the Canaanite chariots continue to be forced back, on the left the Egyptians advance to pin down the lone Canaanite light infantry unit. 

On the Egyptian right flank the light infantry managed to recoil the blades but then later is forced to flee.  On the left flank the Egyptian missile fire is ineffective.  In the centre, the Egyptian chariot manages to loot the camp.  This brings the Canaanites to their breakpoint and they retreat into Megiddo.

End 

Verdict

That was a fun game.  And at least the Egyptians won this refight.  I will continue to tinker with the rules as am not that fond of lots of recoils.  I understand why they are there but I am used to using a disorder marker for deteriorating positions.   After the game I remembered I thought I had done a version of my own rules, ABC on a grid with no markers required.  Looking through the files I did do so, back in 2019! It has some good points that I was thinking of applying to these rules.  It seems I am at least consistent it what I like in rules.  I will continue to see if these are worth playing but in the meantime with move onto other rules to use with Megiddo.   But before that, I have gone back to playing a lot of Dominion of the Spear – so simple, so fast!

 

Battle of Megiddo 1479BC – battle report with DBSA (sort of)

Introduction

After playing some replays of this battle with Dominion of the Spear, I realised how interesting I find this battle.  I decided to play it with the latest iteration of my Ancient Battlelines Clash rules.

And then I have always wanted to use DSBA, the forerunner to DBA.  Megiddo has a lot of archers and DBSA has no ranged combat so I added to DBSA the Bows troop type able to fire at 200p. I made a few very minor modifications to the combat results.  But very minor (I amazingly resisted doing a lot more). DBSA also has Chariots as a distinctive troop type, which I like.  I have never really been enamoured with the opposed dice and compare to less that or greater than half but we shall see.  If I am ok with it I may play it more.  Of course, in the past I have always said that and then played a game of DBA and then moved on :-)

Post battle spoiler: opposed 2d6 and comparing half/greater than half I found I am ok with but not greatly inspired. So I worked on a 1d6 variant that is good enough for me.  Nuances are lost compared to the 2d6 but I am fine with that for less calculation.

Battle of Megiddo 1479BC  

The Egyptian Pharaoh Thutmose III defeats a Canaanite coalition before the walls of the city of Megiddo.

Sources

See this previous Megiddo battle report for sources I used.

Troops

Egyptians

3 CH Chariots (one with the general Thutmose III, 1 Swordsmen/Blade/HI Heavy infantry, 2 Auxilia/MI Medium Infantry, 2 Bows/LA Light Archers, 1 CP Camp.

Breakpoint: 3

Coalition of Syrians under the prince of Kadesh

2 CH Chariots (one with leader), 2 Auxilia/MI Medium Infantry, 2 Psiloi/LI Light Infantry, 1 Bows/LA Light Archer, 1 CP Camp.

Breakpoint: 3

Scenario & Deployment

Special rules: A draw is a rebel victory.

I have gone with a deployment loosely based on the Peter Sides scenario.

Deployment (Egyptians on the left)

Game

Egyptians go first and all advance towards the opposing Canaanites.  The Egyptians fire, as do the Canaanites in return.  This breaks up the opposing lines on the Egyptian left flank.  The next turn sees the Canaanite archer destroy their opposing Egyptian archer.

Egyptian left flank battlelines are now broken up due to missile fire

The Egyptian chariots charge into the Canaanite chariots, all the Egyptian chariots recoil (expect the support one).

Egyptian chariots charge and are repulsed

The Egyptian right flank charges up the hill and manages to force a Canaanite Medium infantry further up the hill.  Next turn the light infantry is also forced back and then the turn after flees

Egyptian right flank charging up the hill

Across the line the Egyptians are slowly forcing the Canaanites back.  On the left they are recoiling from bowfire, in the centre both Chariots are forced to retreat and on the right flank a medium infantry is forced back into the cliff and so routs.

Canaanite chariots in retreat

Egyptian right flank forces a medium infantry to retreat

But then disaster for the Egyptians!  On their left flank the Canaanite bowfire is so great the other Egyptian archer unit routs.  There is only an Egyptian medium infantry for defence.

Egyptian left flank down to one unit

And then even more tragedy!  In the centre an Egyptian chariot is lost. 

Egyptians lost a chariot

The Egyptians have lost 3 units from starting with 8 units so flee the battlefield.  They have lost.

End

Verdict

The Egyptians rolled ok when it was not critical but rolled badly when it was important and so lost the three units.  If they had just rolled well at the right times it could have easily ended up as an Egyptian victory.  Alas it was not the historical result due to hot Canaanite dice.  As noted at the start of the post, the whole roll 2d6 and compare for half/greater than half I think is a great mechanism but I think I would have to play a few more games for the calculations to just easily flow.  Rather than do that, I have a 1d6 variant that is not as nuanced but works ok.

I did not mind the flow of the game but the game took longer than with my own rules. There was a lot of interactions between units (missile fire or combat) that did nothing interesting e.g. caused a recoil to one side but next turn the unit was moved back in line. But then my rules are designed for really quick results, at least compared to DBA. 

Zama refight with DBA

Background
For the first refight of Zama using different rulesets, I thought this time I will get DBA out of the way first. Although not that fond of it, it is the most popular ruleset for less than 1 hour on a 2'x2' table. So it will offer some comparison for later rules.

Forces

Roman
1 Cv - Heavy Cavalry
4 LH - Light Cavalry
4 Ps - Velites
4 Bd - Hastati
4 Bd - Principes
2 Sp - Triarii (one with general)
4 Hd - Light Infantry

Carthaginians
1 Cv - Heavy Cavalry
2 Lh - Light Cavalry
2 El - Elephants
2 Ps - Skirmishers
4 Ax - Light Infantry
4 Sp - Medium infantry
4 Sp - Heavy Infantry (one with General)

A bit of a tough call on where to place the generals.  So I put them at the back.

Deployment
As per my standard deployment map but rather than link to it, here it is:

Or a view from the top:

Setup - spotted that the Romans had 2 Cv during turn 1, but the extra base appears in this picture. And in DBA, generals are not separate but part of a unit.  Fixed all this after this picture taken. 

Special rules
Carthaginians will go first.
If it looks like the cavalry battle is going to end really fast, I may just stop them for a couple of turns. Note from post-game: I did not have to do this.
Also, the Numidian Light infantry cannot be activated until a Carthaginian comes within 6".
Victory will have to be when I call it as using the normal DBA breakpoint will not see the rear lines ever get into contact.

Tactics
The aim of the Carthaginians will be to prolong the cavalry clashes as long as possible.  In the centre it will be to defeat the Roman lines, one by one.  Strangely enough, the Roman plan is to hasten the cavalry clashes, and defeat the Carthaginians lines, one by one.  Fairly straightforward.  We will see how close to history we go.
 
Turn 1
The Carthaginians shuffle the lines forward; the Romans do also, and move forward the cavalry on both flanks. The Roman LH moves a double move with some spare PIPS. Light Horse use additional PIPs to make additional moves so long as it does not start of finish within a base width of an enemy.  Both leave enough room between the skirmish line and the next line in to allow for recoils, flees etc.

Turn 2
Carthaginian elephant and skirmisher line charge the Velites.  Outcome: all 4 Velites recoiled.  All the Romans could do was charge their Numidian light horse into the Carthaginian Numidian Light Horse.  It is a 4 Vs 2 battle. But the outcome was a Roman Light Horse recoiled.  I am used to thinking in units and see the LH as a unit but the Roman LH is really 4 individual units and so next turn individual bases could wrap around the flanks which will turn recoils into destruction.

Elephant line about to clash with the Velites

Turn 3
Elephants and Skirmishers charge in again and the rest of the lines move further forward.  One Elephant and Carthaginian Skirmisher lost, but a Roman Velite lost and another flees.The Carthaginian Numidians in contact result is the destruction of two Roman Light Horse; one in the Carthaginian turn, one in the Roman turn.  This flank is not going so historical.   

 Light Horse flank - Roman LH on the sides, Carthaginian in the centre.

Turn 4 and 5
Turn 4 had PIP roll of one each - Elephant and skirmisher charge the Hastati, and are bounced.


Elephant charges in again. Roman Velites attack the Carthaginian first line.  No damage, just a few recoils for each side.

Elephants with auxilia close behind (too close!).  Two Velites defending on the right.

Turn 6 and 7
Elephant and Hastati clash again for no effect, except the elephant recoils into an Auxilia, destroying it. Wow! Historical outcome. I did have the first line about 80mm behind but the Roman Hastati moved forward to contact after a recoil, and the elephant recoiled again - into the Carthaginian first line.  Carthaginian first line destroys a Velite.

Then the second (and last) Elephant is gone. Hastati move forwards, only 1 inch from the Auxilia now.  7 turns and only really the skirmisher line has contacted.

Overview at end of turn 7.  Romans at the bottom.

Turns 8 and 9
Some re-arrangements of the front lines.  Romans now have two Velites on each flank of the Hastati line - this will provide the valuable -1 modifier for attacks.  This is one thing it is still hard for me to grasp about DBx, even after 15 years - the longevity of skirmishers.  Especially compared to Armati where they are removed on contact with just about everything!  Hastati destroy another 2 Light Infantry.
An aside on the cavalry flanks: Historically, the Romans won both flanks, pursued the enemy cavalry and returned near the end of the infantry battle to finish them off in the rear.  In this refight, there is a stand-off between the two cavalry units as they are the same combat strength.  And the Numidian light horse is now two units versus two units and so is quite equal - neither side wanting to press the issue and possibly give an advantage to either side.  So, while I thought I may have to wave a hand to prevent the cavalry entering the infantry battle too soon, they may never actually enter...


Turn 10 and 11
The last Auxilia of the Carthaginian first line is destroyed.  Thinking back, the tactic  for the roman, and the Carthaginian, would be to extend the flanks with the psiloi and/or light infantry.  The Romans did so with two of the fleeing Velites, and they have an advantage going up against the second Carthaginian line.  This began to be a theme in later turns as the lines were extended to stop advantages.

The Hastati and the Carthaginian second line about to clash.

The lines meet...and the result is a few recoils on each side. 

Turn 12
Next turn, a Velite turns onto the flank of a second line - it the Romans score a recoil, it will be destroyed.  Which it is.
Carthaginians bring into the line their Cavalry on the flank (so much for my aside earlier) to gain an advantage - and manage to destroy the pesky Velite on the flank - now the Carthaginians have an advantage there.  One of the Carthaginian veterans moves up to combat the Velite on the other flank, and recoils.  Sometimes I have to stretch my imagination to understand DBA results.

Each of the the clashing line flanks fragments (but soon restored).

Turn 13 to 15
Romans split the Principes line to either side to support the flanks of the Hastati.

Carthaginians play the same trick as the Romans did earlier - wheeled a Skirmisher on the flank of a Hastati.  Local advantage- a Spear with two supports Vs a Blade - 4 Vs 3.  Spears win 10 to 9.  Hastati cannot recoil and destroyed.
Romans bring their cavalry into the fray as well.


The line (much extended) meets again.  The Spears recoil. The trick is trying to get a good enough local advantage - the Romans managed it by recoiling a few Spears leaving one lone Spear with two Roman supports beside it - making it a 5 vs 3.  But just a recoil.  Possibly the Romans can afford to close the door with some Blades as they have more of them.  Will have to see.

The battle lines extended, with the advantage to the Romans.

Turn 16 to 18
The lines, which contains almost all the remaining troops with both sides also having a 2 unit reserve, clash.

The lines clash.

The line clash went on for a few more turns.  The Carthaginian cavalry was destroyed first, making the Carthaginian right flank quite open.  This was followed by the rightmost Spear unit next turn which is really leaving that flank open! And then another spear unit from both flanks.  With the Carthaginians down to only 3 Spear unit, and the Romans having lost nothing, I called it a victory for the Romans.

The remainder of the lines.  The three Carthaginians are centred on the general at the top.

Overview of the filed at game end.

Verdict
It was a long game - 18 turns!  There is nearly twice the elements for a normal DBA games, and also the game is staged over three lines of troops. So it is unsurprising it took so long.  I estimate there was at least 2 hours playing time.  I think that DBA, compared to some of the other rules I'll try out, it not well suited to fast play when multiple lines are involved. Once again, as per the Callinicum DBA game, I did enjoy the game but found it not as historically representative as I like.  Some things went quite historical - the Elephants impacting the Carthaginian first line, the Principes did help extend the line of the Hastati which is similar to parts of the original battle.  The to and fro when the heavy troops clash is well represented. But the skirmishers hung around which still gets to me.  I understand the reasoning, it just does sit comfortably with me.  Still, a good game. There are others rules I like more so I think this will be my last solo DBA effort.  If all the Zama refights take this long though, I am only going to replay it a few times before moving on to a different battle.

Callinicum refight with DBA slight mod

As mentioned in my refight with DBA, I am not keen on DBA due to the lack of differentiation of troop type as in many other rules.  Rather than go all the way to DBM, E-BBDBA (see files section of the DBA yahoo group) offers an alternative (and I quote the relevant paragraph):

Inferior (I) troops must re-roll a combat score of ‘5’ but don’t re-roll again if they score a second ‘5’.
Superior (S) troops can choose to re-roll a combat score of ‘2’; they can so choose after an (I) opponent re-rolls.  Where (S) troops oppose, the player whose turn it is can choose before the other side or after inviting him to re-roll first.  A second score of ‘2’ is not re-rolled.

I will use this to see if I think it improves what I am looking for.

For for information of the Battle of Callinicum see my previous post.

Troops


Persian
6xCv
3xCv(S)
3xLH

Byzantine
3xSp
4xCv
2xCv(S)
1xAx
3xLH(I)


Deployment
I deployed the same as in most refights, and the same as the DBA refight.

The Persians are in two groups, from their right to left: 6xCv, 3 Cv(S) and 3xLH.
The Byzantines are in three groups, from their left to right: 3xSp, 2 Cv, 2 Cv(S), 2 Cv, 1 Ax and 3xLH(I).

I have placed a general figure behind the general stand as a reminder.


Persian moves first.

Turn 1
Different tactics, slightly, to my previous DBA game, as the Persians will be attempting to overwhelm the Byzantine LH(I).  In the previous game I was aiming for their neighbours, the Ax.  So the Inferior/Superior has already modified the tactical options.
Low PIPs for both sides which gave a general advance to both battlelines.

Turn 2
Persians get low pips and advance their two groups.
Byzantines get worse (a 1) and move the Auxilia up to help protect the LH(I) slightly.  It will be a clash of almost the complete battleline.

The battlelines face off

 
Turn 3
High PIPs for the Persians.  Move the battle line up, flank a Cv on one edge and move the LH to the other flank for an overlap and out of the way of the LH for possible retaliation.  Two Byzantine Cavalry destroyed.  There was an option for a reroll when the Byzantine general rolled a 2.  The reroll was a 1!  Ah well.  Fortunes of war.
Byzantine roll high for PIPs, moves back into battle and brings up the LH.  A reroll by the Persian Cv(S) changed a destroyed to a 'remain in combat' on the reroll.  But the Persians lose another Cavalry and a LH.

View from the Persian side of the LHs on the left, and the heavy cavalry zig-zag in the centre.

Turn 4
Persian has 1 PIP and attacks a Cavalry on their right flank for no effect.  Byzantines also roll low for PIPS and attack on the other flank, bringing up the Ax and LH.  But they lost a LH (to a 1-5 roll).
Byzantines have lost 3, Persians 2.

Turn 5
Persians get a 6 for PIPs! and reform the battleline.  The dangerous combat for the Byzantines was going to the the one where a recoil for a cavalry would take it straight back into the generals element.

The centre front show the Byzantine cavalry in contact with the Persian cavalry.  If the former recoils, the General unit behind it will be destroyed.  It was.

It got a recoiled.  One cavalry and one general gone.  The other combat left was a draw.
Byzantines have lost 5 elements, including the general, Persians 2.  Persian victory.

Verdict
I thought having the Inferior and Superior helped differentiate the troops and give it a slightly better feeling for me of ancient combat.  It did help in a few instances and did change the tactics of the game.There are other things (the swing of the die for PIPs) I wouldn't mind changing.  But to me, vanilla DBA is king - it really works well as is.  By changing some of the rules around to get more of my historical feel, I think I am better off with other rules.  If I was to play DBA, I would still likely play as-is, the modifications only increased the historical feel slightly.

Callinicum refight with DBA

Rules
DBA is the primary and worldwide leader in fast play ancient rules that plays on a 2'x2' board in under an hour.  I have played about 8 games over the last 15 years and it doesn't move me.  I don't hate it, don't love it, would just prefer to play something else.  One of the things I don't like is the lack of difference between good and poor troops (unlike its big brother DBM).  I am also not fond of the PIP system - a range of 1 to 6 per turn for unit/group activation is just too much for me to rationalise.  I don't mind rolling for commands, but maybe if it was a range of 3-5 or 2-4.  There are lots of ways to change the PIP system (2d6 and best roll, 2d6/2, average die, die modifiers etc) but for this replay I will leave it as a d6.  For for information of the Battle of Callinicum see my previous post.

On the lack of poor/superior, I think after the DBA replay, I will do a quick run through with the E-BBDBA modifications for inferior and superior.  I will also, if I have the energy do a game of DBM100.

There are a lot of resources for DBA on the Net, and a good place to start is Fanacitus.

Unlike other replays, I'm not going into to much detail on the dice that was rolled etc - there is enough out there on how DBA plays.

Lastly, my concern is that the game is unlikely to go historically, in fact, the historical Callinicum tactics such as the veteran Light Cavalry chasing down the unreliable Light Cavalry isn't going to happen (or at least, won't happen without the dice going the right way).  Straight BBDBA would cure this as you can tweak the number of forces on each side to bring out the differences, as can be shown with this BBDBA refight of Callinicum.  DBA shines as a game, but maybe not as 'historical' (and it is in quotes as it is all very subjective) as BBDBA is.

Troops
One thing about DBA, troops are easy to figure out!

Persian
9xCv
3xLH

Byzantine
3xSp
6xCv
1xAx
3xLH

Deployment
Deployment is a bit harder.  Normally at the start of the game it seems to be good practice to only have a couple of groups in total so as to be able to move all units regardless of the PIP roll.  According to the scenario, there would be 4 distinct Persian groups and 6 distinct Byzantine groups.  Not great for DBA. With a minor compromise, I think there is a good case for smaller number of groups.  I have used this for deployment:

Deployment - Persians on the left, Byzantines on the right

The Persians are in two groups, from their right to left: 9xCv and 3xLH.
The Byzantines are in three groups, from their left to right: 1xSp and 6xCv+1Ax and 3xLH
Note: the Sp is by itself due to the way the original battle played out.
I have placed a general figure behind the stand with the general as a reminder.

The trick is to get some local superiority as all the Heavy Cavalry are the same.  The best place for the Persians is on their left flank where the Auxilia is a weak point.  For the Byzantines, it is their left flank with the Spear that provides the best bet.  So that will be my starting point for strategy.  Even though I said DBA didn't seem to lend itself to the historical battle, this is roughly how it went.  So much for my pre-game thoughts on standard DBA and historical scenarios!

Persian moves first.

Turn 1
Persians advance along the front and move the majority of the cavalry to the right flank.  The Byzantines roll 1 for PIPs and advances the spears.

Turn 2
Persians continue the advance.  The Byzantines get a decent PIP roll and move forwards.  It really is going to be a clash of battle lines for most of the board...

Byzantine battleline

Turn 3
Persian's advance with roughly the right half of their forces into contact - there are some slight advantages to overlaps, the Aux is a good target and some forces needs flank support.  The other half can wait - the Byzantine general hasn't been contacted yet - as can't get an advantage so did not do it.
Byzantines lose a LH, Persians lose a Cavalry (via a 1-6 roll).
Byzantines see the chance to destroy the general (it was the cavalry on the flank of the Persian general that was destroyed).  Rolled just enough PIPs to put two units on the Persian general, one on the flank.  Unbelievable - another 1-6,  but this time against the Byzantines.  Byzantine Cavalry destroyed, and now there is a Byzantine cavalry unit with a cavalry unit behind it, this seems like a target.

End of turn 3 carnage - left side shows the two Byzantine Cavalry at right angles

Turn 4
Low Pips for the Persian but manage to destroy a Cavalry.  But the LH combat, that has had 3 successive equal rolls, sees the Byzantine doubling the Persians. Each side has now lost 3 elements. (note that due the a number of stands hanging around the edge of the board from previous battles, I thought the Persians had lost 2 LHs when it was only one.  But I only realised this at the end of the game when I was setting up for the next one.)
Byzantines gets a high PIP roll and pick on the remaining Persian LH and also use the Byzantine General to get an advantage in the centre battle line...Persian LH destroyed.  Byzantine recoils in the centre.

End of game

Persians have lost 4 elements (really only lost 3 - see note for turn 3) and the Byzantines 3.  Games ends with a Byzantine victory.

Verdict
A very clean game.  I liked playing it.  I can see why so many people play it. There is tactical depth to the game and the rules are very complete, tight and fit well together. It meets the requirements of playing under one hour and using a 2'x'2' (as expected as the rules are specifically designed for this!).  However, it just doesn't met what I am looking for in the feel of a historical game. I like to see a bit of missile fire rather than it abstracted.  Every unit in the Callinicum battle had bows or javelins, and yet not one die roll for long range fire. And how to represent the inferiority of the Ghassanid light cavalry?  In BBDBA is could be done by having less of them but not practicable at this level.  Don't gt me wrong.  I do like DBA and would play it again.  It just isn't in my top few ancient miniature games.  But I would recommend them to anyone to try them as if you like them, they are complete, comprehensive and fun.